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 Anonymous posted on Monday, May 24, 1999 - 12:46 pm
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LFCA '99 was not earth shattering but it proved a few points to me:
1) "Imax Days" clearly affected the turnout of Imax corporate delegates as well as many of their clients at this year's LFCA conference. Is "Imax Days" Imax's own way of taking their ball and going home??...Just as well -- Many would not care to have seen how well industry acceptance of 870 has grown.
2) DTS sounds great! And the cost is a mere fraction of the DDP. Not only that, I predict that very shortly the industry will turn to timecoding its prints...and it's about time. Customize your show audio digitally? Why not!? Dubbers are crap and we all know it!
3) There is no impending shortage of educational programs...commercial theaters -- you're S.O.L. until F2K.
4) Lester Novros will never get the recognition he truly deserves. The industry owes him a great debt.
That's all for now.
LF Guy. |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, May 24, 1999 - 01:27 pm
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| I recently hired a "real" (i.e. 35-mm.) projectionist, and he was appalled at the sound system. He can't understand why we don't have timecode on the prints, which can then in turn drive DTS or any other source that has the ability to read the timecode. Just think: no more out-of-sync problems! (And you could actually remove film without having to splice in black. I'm not talking for large sections; I'm talking about the frame here or there which needs to be replaced with an obvious and annoying black "flash" in the theater.) |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, May 24, 1999 - 02:32 pm
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| I would point out that the digital sound systems now in many Imax Theaters would require minimal (if any) modification to follow timecode printed on the film. Therefore, the above implied statement that the films don't have timecode on them because of some limitation with the sound systems is flawed. Also, you neglected to mention audio quality, but I will point out that DTS uses compressed audio while the systems from Sonics do not. |
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| DTS does not need timecode printed on the film. Many large format theaters use DTS everyday for feature presentations. All you need is a shaft encoder and the DTS Timecode converter E-175. Niagara Falls IMAX currently uses a DTS soundtrack for NIAGARA. DTS has the least compression of the "Big 3" systems. (Dolby Digital, SDDS) I don't think the average viewer will notice whether you are running DTS or DDP. BTW: There aren't to many "REAL" 35mm projectionists out there anymore. Who is he to be a critic of our systems? IMAX simply does not want code or a track invading into the picture area. |
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| The DTS timecode is outsite the sprocket holes on 70mm film. So it shouldn't invade the picture area. Granted there is the laboratory issue of adding the timecode to the internegative. I ran the restored _Vertigo_ in 70mm DTS (5-perf, of course) at my "real" theater. |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, May 24, 1999 - 03:38 pm
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Okay then, for the record -- I'm sure plenty of readers would like to know why, if what you stated above is the case, Imax/Sonics has not encouraged distributors to print timecode? Any projectionists, Theater managers, or distributors reading this?!? All this time...all those lost shows due to power bumps...having to deal with crummy 35mm mag...Spice automation's "thyme card"!!! Same goes for Iwerks...get with it, the IDA (Iwerks Digital Audio) is a silly DTS wanna be -- without the timecode! I don't care if timecode CAN be generated from a tach pulse...it belongs on the film where it can be used universally.
In addressing the issue of digital compression...sure, there is a difference, a negligible one that I'd bet the above message poster could not even differentiate. (A/B switch test? I dare you!) Oh yes, there's another difference as well...almost 100 GRAND!! My point is simple: I don't care who is "almost capable" of using timecode. The industry needs to demand it NOW. Distributors...print it. Theaters...consider DTS as a secondary sound source, even if you already have a DDP. The folks at DTS are wonderful about customizing feature soundtracks with whatever trailers you need on 'em...always a free service...never a hassle. Also...it is next to impossible to screw up a show with the wrong soundtrack...if your p/t projectionist does somehow manage to do so...he can switch 'em back anytime. Sonics...what are YOU waiting for? You are audio geniuses, just do it!
-- LF Guy on a mission |
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| Interesting exchange. I should point out that Imax uses DTS units in their Ridefilm theaters and doesn't seem to be bothered by the idea of digital compression. Printed Timecode -- I'm all for it. I don't think anyone is really against it...is there? and why? |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, May 24, 1999 - 08:36 pm
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The DTS compression protocol does not compromise the quality of the audio track. The segments of soundtrack which are not utilized (or quiet) are the only parts that are "squeezed" out.
One more thing to consider. Our theater will be using a 35mm projector later on down the road for evening shows. With a DTS unit already in place, no changes will need to be made to our theater's sound rack in order to accomodate conventional shows.
My feeling about timecode: Keep It Simple Stupid. Timecode is the surest, most direct way to automate any theater functions with relation to the film. The signal is right there on the film -- no questions as to sync! No Timecode converters or signal amplifiers -- both of which can easily fail. Timecode allows THE MOST FLEXIBILITY with regard to captioning, descriptive audio, and alternative language tracks, no matter what you sync up to it...but guess what? DTS is already doing all three of the above.
LF Guy...again. |
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| Maybe it depends on how you define "compromise." Dolby Digital, SDDS, and DTS use "lossy" compression. They all produce "quality" sound but none provide an exact "lossless" match to the audio prior to encoding. Granted a lossless compression scheme isn't required to provide quality sound. |
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| While it's true that IMAX uses DTS for the Ridefilms, it should be noted that the Ridefilms use an 8/35 Vistavision print that is not timecoded, much like IMAX's 15/70 prints. It is the ride technician's responsibility to synch the print with the soundtrack. |
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| Thanks Joe. My point was actually that Imax does in fact use DTS. Timecoded or not, Imax does not feel it is beneath them to use compressed audio..."lossy" audio -- whatever you wanna call it. Interesting LFCA forum we have going here...about audio...not LFCA, hmmmmmmmm. |
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| Jim DiDio posted on Tuesday, May 25, 1999 - 12:50 pm
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| And by the way, I liked "Return of the Jedi" better than "The Phantom Menace". :) |
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| Anonymous posted on Tuesday, May 25, 1999 - 01:13 pm
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| One of the answers to "why" not timecode stripe prints, is, you guessed it, MONEY. At current lab prices an 8/70 print of say 40 minutes runs about $10-12,000 --to move to a DTS striped print, you double the cost, YES DOUBLE, for the first print. After the first print is processed, subsequent prints are then only a 1/3rd or so more than usual. |
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Since you brought up Star Wars...
I liked the story, but it is weak as a stand-alone film. It relys too much on future installments for any resolution...which is probably why the pod race took up 1/4 of the film. A few things bothered me: The battle droids always saying "Roger-Roger" -- who says that??. The fact that the Trade Federation commanders all had really bad mongolian-sounding accents. Anikin's "immaculate conception"...please! Jar-Jar is ok w/ me though. The theater I saw it in used SDDS and it sounded great. -- Sorry, had to throw another log into the fire. |
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| The best part of the new Star Wars film had to be Dolby Digital EX. It's incredible to actually listen to something fly over you, rather than just fly by. As for DTS in the Ridefilms, IMAX chose it over a Sonics system due to its affordability. The Ridefilm systems were designed to be cost efficient and placed in areas such as shopping malls. Showscan and Iwerks, I believe, also use DTS for their motion simulator systems. Higher end IMAX ride systems use more advanced sound systems. Race for Atlantis uses a Sonics PSE system. Also interesting to note, it appears that the company may be starting to phase out the Ridefilm program. The replacement, designed by Douglas Trumbell's EDW and Hitachi will use video screens rather than film, and hopefully have a less troublesome motion base. On the new system, both video and audio are stored on hard drive. |
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I agree timecode on the films might be nice, but the Orlando Science Center's CineDome has been showing 100% digital audio 15/70 shows (walk-in music, theater announcements, multiple trailers, and features... all in one show) since its debut over two years ago. A combination of SPICE Automation (Thyme box) and DTS made this an easy feat. The automation system and DTS are on UPS backup, so power glitches don't pose that much of a threat (the projector is another story, but bottom line is that shows can be easily recovered). In addition, the DTS tracks for the feature and trailers have all been laid down with a unique "hour" value, which enables the unit to be loaded with all current features/trailers simultaneously.
I must say that my dealings with Bill Hunter at DTS were more than pleasant. Also, although the DTS encoding process itself is proprietary, the final product is a CD-ROM with a PC format file, which means making a backup disk costs about a dollar (if you do it yourself).
When DTS first came about, CD-ROM was convenient mass storage. While it still is, the only improvement to the DTS system I can think of would be the ability to play from a nice size hard-drive (now cheap) as well as the CDs themselves. A 9GB hard drive could store more than 10 features simultaneously, along with all the trailers one could ever imagine. Of course a feature that allowed the user to change the "hour" on the SMPTE stripe when moving them from CD to hard drive would also be needed to avoid conflicts once all the hours were used up.
While I was never upset with the quality of Sonics digital audio... they aren't the only folks in the world with a digital system that sounds great. |
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POSTED ABOVE:
"At current lab prices an 8/70 print of say 40 minutes runs about $10-12,000 --to move to a DTS striped print, you double the cost, YES DOUBLE, for the first print. After the first print is processed, subsequent prints are then only a 1/3rd or so more than usual."
Not exactly.
The following per/ft stats have been gathered from Jack West at CFI:
Check Print without timecode: $1.182/ft
Check Print with timecode: $2.0985/ft
The increase in the cost of the Check Print is $.9165/ft.
There have even been lower estimates (Talk to Bill Hunter at DTS).
Ideally, and in most cases, the Check Print would have to be done only once...but sometimes, for any number of reasons, additional print(s) must be made.
If all goes well with the initial Check Print, the DTS timecode will cost an additional (45min film):
15 perf = $13,919 8 perf = $7,424
DTS is agreeing to take responsibility for the additional costs of printing DTS timecode onto the check print.
So: Additional Check Print costs = $0
Distribution Prints with timecode are an additional $.1211/ft. Total additional lab costs for a 45 minute distribution print with DTS timecode:
15 perf = $1,839.21 8 perf = $980.91
Distribution companies get a multiple film purchase rate based on total cost of the film, lowering these figures a bit further.
MacGillivray-Freeman now uses timecode on ALL PRINTS regardless of which theater will use them. This ultimately SAVES THEM MONEY when films are transferred from one theater to another. Ken at "Mac-Free" would be happy to back me up on this.
I will be happy to back up any figures that anyone finds questionable. |
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| I understand that a IMAXDome theater out west is getting ready for DTS 15/70 sound. Any info? |
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| Anonymous posted on Sunday, May 30, 1999 - 01:17 pm
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Do any Imax 1570 theaters currently use DTS? If so, does Sonics service the unit as part of their quarterly call (They service other non-propietary, ancilliary audio equipment) -- not that I imagine it needs much attention.
-- Curious. |
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| When I was working on the ridefilm, sonics did not service the DTS. Supposedly, those were being serviced by Tritech, the manufacturers of the motion base. Our IMAX tech did however service the ridefilm's Vistavision projectors when he came to service our 15/70 projector. |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, May 31, 1999 - 12:59 pm
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Tritech, huh? I guess that your DTS units really didn't need much servicing then, huh?
The truth hurts. |
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| As far as I can recall, Tritech not only maintained the motion base, but the control systems as well (although the programming for the motion profiles was done by IMAX Ridefilm Corp). When the question came up as to who was to maintain the DTS systems, Sonics or DTS, I was advised that these too would be handled by Tritech. Fortunately, I never saw it come to this as the DTS never really broke down during my duration there. So, as to whether they were serviced by DTS or Tritech, I can't really say at this point. |
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| Anonymous posted on Tuesday, June 01, 1999 - 08:06 am
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Re; pricing stats:
Thanks for the update--the pricing listed in my previous message were lab quotes for films not yet striped, and there is usually a 15 - 20% charge on top of that for handling and quality control by the print agent. There have been ongoing conversations, particularily in the last 10 days, between DTS and CFI about the pricing for striping prints--we are hoping some headway has been made. |
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| Anonymous posted on Thursday, June 03, 1999 - 08:12 am
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| What do you mean by "striping"? I thought DTS timecode was printed on the edge to be read optically. |
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