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 Ron Bartsch posted on Monday, January 03, 2000 - 11:21 am
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| Happy Y2K everyone. For us F2K theatres, I was wondering how everyone did for the opening weekend business-wise. Here at the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village in Dearborn, Michigan, we sold out every single show over the opening weekend. In fact, all shows for the weekend were sold-out by 10:00 am on Saturday morning. The local response to Fantasia 2000 has been overwhelming! I hope everyone has had similar results. Also, what does everyone think about that IMAX branding trailer that DKP sent out for placement on F2K? I think it is awesome--long overdue! |
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| We also had an outstanding weekend here in New Rochelle, NY. We had such a demand on Saturday January 1st, that we added an 11:00 pm show to appease all the patrons that were waiting on line for the 7:00pm and 9:00pm shows (those shows had already been sold out for hours, as had all the other early shows). I would like to mention that our Projection Staff did a WONDERFUL JOB getting our Fantasia Shows set up and running correctly. We have had no technical problems so far with our shows (knock on wood). The F2K retrofits plus the possibility of Y2K computer errors made opening day a little more tense. I have the utmost respect for all Chief Projectionists and assistants who took on this new challenge of a full length feature and suceeded. So, from one Theatre General Manager to every projectionist, give yourself a pat on the back! |
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I saw Fantasia 2000 last night at the Muvico Pointe Orlando IMAX. I had advance-sale tickets for the 8p show. All shows were sold out except for the 10p show... and that too was sold out by the time the 8p was finished.
I enjoyed the film. The audience I saw it with seemed to enjoy it as well. There was applause at the conclusion of each segment.
In keeping with active discussion, however, I'd like to share the following link to an editorial that appeared in The Boston Globe. The piece focuses on the Boston Museum of Science's decision not to show Fantasia 2000 on Disney's terms.
PLEASE NOTE: As administrator of this forum, I usually try to maintain a fairly neutral approach to topics being presented here, even when, in cases like this one... I have strong feelings. The editorial I have linked to is being presented for your consideration, and is not intended to represent my feelings on this issue. |
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| Jim Walker posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2000 - 07:57 am
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| Thanks for the link, Brian. I hope that those theaters who are showing F2K have a great run. It is good to hear of multiple days of sold-out shows. Similarly, I hope that other theaters (ours included) that didn't decide to show Fantasia 2000 can feel good about their decision as well. Whether "standing up to the... mouse" or just making what you think is a good business decision, there are a host of reasons for and against this movie (and every other one we show). So, Happy 2000 everyone. Hope all goes well for you... |
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The response and grosses have been wonderful. After just 3 days Fantasia/2000 has grossed nearly $4 million at 75 theatres worldwide, or a little over $51,000 per location on average. Sellouts were everywhere this weekend, as were reports of audience applause during and after the feature.
Thank you to all the Projectionists and theatre personel, as well as the great people at IMAX, Sonics, and DPK-70MM who made opening weekend go so smoothly. |
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| Ron Bartsch posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2000 - 10:29 am
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Does anyone know if that beats Everest's record? I can't recall the numbers.
Thanks Paul for the acknowledgement. Disney's appreciation, and the public response to the film made those long preparation nights all worthwhile! |
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| The weekend gross for the "Everest" opening topped $60,000. But the film initially opened on much fewer screens. $41,000 per screen on 56 screens for a 2 day weekend is unheard of. The thing about Everest though is that it had legs, very very long legs! |
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| Anonymous posted on Sunday, January 09, 2000 - 01:08 am
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| The highest grossing week for "Everest" was in July 1998 with a little over 2 million dollars in 61 theatres for 7 days. |
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| Anonymous posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 08:16 am
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| Mr. Richard Gelfond is quoted in Maximage as projecting grosses between $25 to $35 million in the next four months or about 40,000 viewers per theater... If this is the case, F2K will be a loss leader for Disney, a loss leader for the exhibitors and a black eye for the industry! |
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PROJECTING GROSSES:
Just illustrates why you did not see Disney project grosses. It is something most often regretted. Should my anonymous friend be interested in actual facts, Fantasia 2000 grossed $11 million dollars worldwide in the first 14 days of release. The per screen average after two full weeks was in excess of $145,000. I suspect the line for “black eyes” will be nearly as long as those at the boxoffices of IMAX theatres playing FANTASIA 2000. Loss leader? Hardly. |
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| Anonymous posted on Friday, January 21, 2000 - 09:18 pm
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$11 million is very impressive! But it is going to take much more than that to cover the cost of the prints, the $3 to $4 million reported cost of the L.A. venue and the huge marketing budget. Disney will make it up with the 35mm release. As for our giant screen theaters, time will tell. Four months is a very long time for an exclusive run...
How is the film doing abroad? |
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| Doncha just love those "anon" posters? :) Paul: We are doing GREAT with F2K at the Mall of Georgia. And we are also selling the whole line of F2K plush toys, books, yo-yos, etc, and we cannot keep the stuff in stock! We go into the theatre before the show, display some of the stuff, talk IMAX and Disney facts...and they just eat 'em up! Last week we had people fly to Atlanta to see it...from Capetown South Africa! |
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| Ron Bartsch posted on Saturday, January 22, 2000 - 04:11 am
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| Ditto here in Dearborn, Michigan. Sell-outs every weekend, as well as packed school group shows during the week. Souvenirs are flying off the shelves too, and Disney collectors are going ape-shit over the stuff. Those anonymous posters are just jealous, eh Patrick? |
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| You bet they are! Disney was the first to take that "leap of faith"...and as well as this is going, I fully expect to see more product from the majors. Cinematographers: Download the file from IMAX on proper filming techniques. A pan in 35mm is just that...a pan. But with IMAX, a too-rapid pan induced motion in the opposite direction to the audience. (barf-bags, anyone?) :) |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 11:35 am
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Here's some things to ponder.....
Aside from the actual creation of the film, what did it cost Disney to convert to 1570?
Film recording, opticals, project management....est. $3 million USD
What were the actual marketing costs...est. $5.6 million USD (70 markets at $80k each).
Prints/trailers......est. $2 million USD
(Another great unknown is how much did it cost Disney to produce the film...the only estimate seen early on was $80 million )
So far the conservative Imax format expense total is $10.6 million.
Now, that against Mr. Gelfonds est. 40,000 viewers per theater at a $9 avg.ticket price brings in $25.2 million (70 sites at 40,000 viewers x $9) of which the distributor gets half, or $12.6 million......thus, revenues of $12.6 million against conservative expense est. of $10.6, leaves Disney with $2 million USD. Hmmmmmm, I think Mr/Ms. Commercial Studio Exec will think twice about continuing the trend...... |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 12:34 pm
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| Perhaps the previous posting was a tad aggressive but it does make the point that F2K, even with its "weekend" success is not necessarily the savior of the large format industry as some suggest. Don't get me wrong, this "proud to be anonymous" poster is very glad F2K is doing as well as it is because the opposite would be a disaster. But, the continued decline of the weekday business reinforces the point that 100% of show schedule was unnecessary and greedy. F2K could be doing just as well in half the slots (at least Mon-Thurs.) Also for all you Disney wannabes who keep harping about F2K being a great 1570 experience, GIVE ME A BREAK. F2K is an outstanding marketing accomplishment and a great piece of family entertainment, absolutely! But to call it a large format experience like an EVEREST or a MYSTERIES OF EGYPT is a stretch don't you think? That having been said, the audiences don't give a damn about graininess, do they? So you brave little posters, call F2K what it is, a great event. |
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| Anonymous posted on Monday, January 24, 2000 - 04:21 pm
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Disney has spent well over $10.6 million to release F2K in 1570.
$3 million production cost? Maybe!
75 prints and trailers, plus shipping cost... at least $3 million.
Marketing cost over $10 million to-date.
Don't forget the LA theater:$4 million.
It will take $40 million gross for Disney to break even. As for the 35mm release, people will be tired of Fantasia by then... |
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| Jim DiDio posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2000 - 08:43 am
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| I doubt the above statement. People won't be tired of Fantasia 'cause most of them won't have seen it. Take New England, where it's not playing in any of the six states: that's, what, 10-15 million people? There'll be plenty of 35-mm. business for the film, I'm sure. |
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To the Anonymous poster. You are making a few simple errors.
First, you are continuing to base your projection of the eventual revenues for FANTASIA 2000 on a truly bad guess made before the film opened. Kinda silly to base your four-month projection on a number that obviously will be passed after five weeks or so.
Second, you are talking authoritatively about production, marketing, and distribution costs that I can diplomatically describe as (and I am being kind here), more bad guesses. The "financial analysis" and numbers detailed above are mostly ridiculous and completely fiction. Thanks for playing. Here are some nice parting gifts….
Patrick, Ron, and Jim seem to get the real successes of FANTASIA 2000, which can be counted before the grosses are tallied. An abundant new audience of "first time" Imax-goers that will return. A wealth of new corporate and school group business, which will come film after film, year after year. And a serious shot of pride for all of us that have been associated with this EVENT. But most of all, audiences continue to applaud. Last time I looked, that was the objective. Not pretending to know budgets or expecting any company to financially support a film in single screen theatres for two shows a day.
Branding doesn't just come; it is achieved, because ultimately it is trust from the consumer. |
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| Anonymous posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 09:35 am
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To Mr. Holliman.
Thank you for your response...please excuse any "bad guesses" on my part... simply working from the very little information that's been shared in all of the bantering thus far. Parting gifts aside, would LOVE to continue to play....please do enlighten us with the "real" numbers so we can all make a clear analysis.
If Imax and/or Disney is surveying the "new and first time viewers" that would good information to share as well, since this statement comes up time and time again from various distribution houses. Surely you can have a lot of pride in your product and this event, but in the end it's the numbers that tell the story. |
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Doncha love the "nay-sayers"....I'll bet some will argue that the earth is really flat. And yes, numbers tell the story, and the numbers from the Mall of Georgia spin quite a nice tale. I'm sure that the other exhibitors of F2K will back me up. Mr. Holliman's figures should be taken as "the gospel truth". Sure, he has pride in his product, since his company made it. I have pride in the product because it is making us money hand over fist. And it's fun! Forget all the haggling over grain, the discussion on months-old projections, and even forget the lousy review done by Entertainment magazine. (The reviewer was irritated with the first sequence. "...are they butterflies, triangles, or what?") To this reviewer I say, "Let me spell "imagination" for you...." He thought Penn and Teller was the best part. He also completely missed the point of the presentation....animation (not "cartoons") set to fine music!
And yes, I am tired of anon posters...they hide behind their keyboards...and are probably Disney-haters anyway. Oh well. They probably think "A Million Houseguests" should have a sequel. |
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| Ron Bartsch posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 11:49 am
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| Paul, EXTREMELY well-said post!! Personally, I don't understand why people continue with this back and forth yammering about dollar figures. I mean geez, we haven't even yet finished F2K's first month, and people are already being prematurely pessimistic about F2K's return profits. All I can say is that we're doing GREAT, and everyone else seems to be doing great. There is no indication of F2K's legs weakening--and I predict that we will be swamped right up until April 30th. Like you said, the real successes are counted before the grosses are tallied. Jim: well said also; F2K will continue to prosper long after leaving IMAX theatres. I mean c'mon...we all know the order of the totem pole when it comes to a blockbuster like F2K or Titanic: first-run movie house, second-run "dollar" house, your local video store, pay-per-view on cable, HBO/Showtime, Network TV; not to mention all the merchandising. When that final, "eventual revenue" number comes in, I'm sure the Disney folks won't be the least bit disappointed. Moreover, as projectionists and technicians, we really shouldn't even be concerned about how much money the film is making. To some of the anon posters: let's get back to those real successes that Paul was talking about, like pride--pride in showing a GREAT film to our audiences, contentment in the fact that we as projectionists are the "last link" in that long chain of people it takes to bring the film to the screen, and when those house lights come up at the end, the audience let's us know their appreciation. For me, that's the reason why I love my job...knowing that the objective was achieved: audiences' POSITIVE response!!! Makes it all worthwhile doesn't it? |
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| James Hyder posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2000 - 04:50 pm
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At the risk of being perceived as an egomaniac, I would like to state that I am not the anonymous poster (or posters) to this thread who quoted from my publication, MaxImage!, and made comments similar to those I have published there. Just in case anyone was guessing it was me.
I'll also take this opportunity to pledge to the LF community that I do not, and would not, make anonymous comments in this or any other forum. I believe that it would be unethical and inappropriate for me as a journalist to do so. (Of course, others may have valid reasons for wishing to comment anonymously.)
That said, I'd also love to see Mr. Holliman correct some of the "bad guesses" and "fictional" numbers others have bandied about. How much actually was spent on the IMAX release alone? Will Disney repeat this strategy for future animated films? Which ones?
After all, the best way to dispel rumors and false information is with truth.
Finally, Mr. Holliman disparages the anonymous poster(s) for "expecting any company to financially support a film in single screen theatres for two shows a day." As it happens, the companies in this industry that do just that are: Imax Ltd., MacGillivray Freeman Films, Destination Cinema, Sony Pictures Classics, Houston Museum of Natural Science, Science Museum of Minnesota, and every other LF distributor. Except Disney.
--James Hyder
Editor/Publisher, MaxImage! |
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| Jim DiDio posted on Thursday, January 27, 2000 - 08:26 am
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I think the unspoken, missing piece of Mr. Holliman's comment might be, "expecting any HOLLYWOOD company". As you well know, when you look at the 1570 industry from a commercial theater and/or entertainment standpoint vs. an institutional theater and/or educational standpoint, things are a bit different. The interpretation of "investment vs. return" and the expectations of "profit" are various, and there are complicated variables to consider. For example, an educational film might get funding, or corporate support, to defray some costs, so they might not need as big of a return. On the other hand, a commercial film has future avenues of marketability (e.g. the journey from 1570 to conventional 35 to pay-cable to videotape/DVD to first-run-network), so you can make the argument that all they really need to do is break even in 1570 as they'll make their money down the road regardless.
One thing's for sure: it's definitely going to get interesting over the next few years.... |
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| Anonymous posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2000 - 03:32 pm
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Why is Disney only reporting the weekend grosses? Something to hide?
I guess it is hard to admit that the theaters are already operating at less than 20% capacity during the week days. The 1570 release of Fantasia was a great idea. But the 100% programming requirement will leave a bad after-taste when it is all over. |
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| I believe the above writer also has something to hide... his/her jealousy that they are probably running a double feature... "A Million Houseguests" and "Niagara"? I can almost bet that he/she is in an institutional situation, and the "powers that be" at that location are now wishing that they were on the bandwagon. We'll probably never know for sure...the reply to this will be "anon" also. (We still have THOUSANDS of tickets presold) :) |
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| I guess I should add....the only reason I dislike "Niagara" is that half-way through, I always have to go to the bathroom for some reason.... :) |
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| Ron Bartsch posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2000 - 07:07 pm
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| Us at less than 20% capacity during the week??? HORSEPUCKEY!!! Our F2K shows during the weekdays are packed with school group kids, especially the A.M. & early afternoon shows. The response from teachers has been overwhelming. We are just as busy during the weekdays as we are on the weekends Mr. Anon. Nothing to hide here. |
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| Anonymous posted on Thursday, February 03, 2000 - 12:47 am
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Disney has been reporting Weekly figures from the first week. Weekend figures have also reported, and commonly get more coverage in the press.
20% percent capacity during the week just means that your group sales efforts need work. |
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| Anonymous posted on Thursday, February 03, 2000 - 07:29 am
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Don't ask what the giant screen industry can do for Disney, ask what Disney can do for the giant screen industry?
When it's all over, I fear the answer will be: more harm than good...
Contrary to what some of you are inclined to believe the "nay-sayers" are not rooting for the failure of the 1570 release of Fantasia. But there is no point in hailing Fantasia's apparent success at the boxoffice as a triumph. When you look at the numbers closely, you will see the X-Ray of an industry in deep trouble.
For the first time ever, the release of a film is allowing us to get a clearer picture of where this industry is heading. Most of the 75 theaters playing Fantasia are commercial theaters. Since these theaters only play one film, we can neatly track their average attendance and it ain't a pretty picture!
During the month of January,an average of 30,389 people saw Fantasia at Imax theaters in NORTH AMERICA. Or an annual attendance of 360,000. Not bad, but still below the average attendance at institutional theaters. For the rest of the world, the average was 23,809 people per theater or an annual attendance of about 250,000 people.
The weekend grosses have been quite strong, dropping only 10% to 15% per weekend. But the weekday grosses have fallen drastically from an average of about $9000 per theater per day during the first week to $3563 last week (about 55 people per show, or less than 20% capacity). At this rate, the attendance for the entire run will be around 75,000 per theater in North American and a meager 50,000 for the rest of the world. This would represent $50,000,000 in worldwide grosses.
In terms of yearly attendance, this amounts to 215,000 people per theater in North America and to only 150,000 for the rest of the world.
According to this scenario, Disney will come out OK, the theaters will be in the red (no theater can turn in a profit at these attendance levels when they have to give up 50% of their revenue to Disney and another 7% to Imax) and Imax Corporation will not earn enough royalties to cover the hardware leasing cost.
On the bright side, the Fantasia release has stirred more interest in this little industry than any single event in the past. If only Disney had not been so shortsighted in demanding 100% of the programming for the entire run, Fantasia could have grossed well over $100 million. |
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| Jim DiDio posted on Thursday, February 03, 2000 - 09:25 am
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Pat: your comment about the "powers that be" at the institutionals wishing they were on the bandwagon is a bit out of line. I'm glad you're doing a good business, but don't be so cavalier about the institutionals' situation in this. Put yourself in their shoes. Speaking for those institutionals, I can tell you that I would've LOVED to have F2K.
I'm not going to get into money discussions. I don't know enough about the financial end to talk about things like 50% cut, etc.,., and whether or not F2K will, in the end, turn out to be profitable to the theater running it. There are other considerations besides money, such as exposing first-time customers, building good free advertising, etc.,. But the bottom line for me was with the 100% show schedule request, which was unreasonable and unrealistic.
The institutionals could not be expected to give up control of their theaters and offer nothing but F2K, especially when it comes to School Groups. The public are only one half of the customer base; schools are the other half. And in the "offseason" of winter, School Groups make up a huge percentage of our weekday business. Offering nothing but F2K would not only be a money-losing proposition for us (as they wouldn't book, and would instead go to a zoo or aquarium), but it also goes against the purpose of the institutional theater, and the reason the school group is there in the first place. They bring their students here to educate them in a fun manner, and show them films like "Amazon" and "The Living Sea". There is definitely a place for "entertainment" films in the institution, and that place is afternoons, evenings, and weekends--not every show, every day, including 10:00 a.m. on a Wednesday morning to a group of 6th-graders who are taken to the museum by their science teacher and want to see something applicable.
Also, we, like others, had already signed contracts when F2K was announced less than a year ago, so we could not make room in the schedule even if we had wanted to.
I applaud Disney for having the courage to be the first Hollywood film company to enter the 1570 area. I applaud them for the media attention, and resultant first-time-customer attendance, they are attracting to 1570. But I would like them to admit that they dropped the ball on this, and I would like the MGMs, 20th Century Foxes, and Paramounts to realize that they can not expect the same contract requirements to be agreed to. It would be a tragic--and possibly fatal--blow to the institutionals if everyone starts saying, "Well, Disney got 100% of the schedule, so that's what we want, too." |
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I must say I am surprised! You are getting lots of school groups?! What price are you charging?
We have found in Tampa that school groups are not able to afford much more than $4 for an IMAX show. Does the School Board subsidize the admission price? By which I mean, does the teacher collect the ticket price from each student, or does the school absorb the cost as part of their educational experience?
This was one of the deciding factors in Tampa that caused us not to run F2K: we polled the teachers- they felt their students could not afford the price we would have had to charge. |
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| Jim: You're right...on all points. I know that the institutionals had deals already done for future films. I was spewing at those anon posters...who replied anonymously, as predicted. The upshot? I'm gonna take two weeks vacation, go to Arizona, go caving, get my head together, and try to be a little more upbeat about the whole shebang when I return! Even with an institutional IMAX in Atlanta, we feel that each of us are going after different audiences, and that neither hurts or helps the other, when it comes to the "customer base" that each has developed. We have a good rapport with each other, and I hope it continues that way. I do agree...the 100% schedule was unfair...and I believe that it probably won't happen again. |
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| Jim: You're right...on all points. I know that the institutionals had deals already done for future films. I was spewing at those anon posters...who replied anonymously, as predicted. The upshot? I'm gonna take two weeks vacation, go to Arizona, go caving, get my head together, and try to be a little more upbeat about the whole shebang when I return! Even with an institutional IMAX in Atlanta, we feel that each of us are going after different audiences, and that neither hurts or helps the other, when it comes to the "customer base" that each has developed. We have a good rapport with each other, and I hope it continues that way. I do agree...the 100% schedule was unfair...and I believe that it probably won't happen again. |
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| Jim: You're right...on all points. I know that the institutionals had deals already done for future films. I was spewing at those anon posters...who replied anonymously, as predicted. The upshot? I'm gonna take two weeks vacation, go to Arizona, go caving, get my head together, and try to be a little more upbeat about the whole shebang when I return! Even with an institutional IMAX in Atlanta, we feel that each of us are going after different audiences, and that neither hurts or helps the other, when it comes to the "customer base" that each has developed. We have a good rapport with each other, and I hope it continues that way. I do agree...the 100% schedule was unfair...and I believe that it probably won't happen again. |
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| Jim DiDio posted on Friday, February 04, 2000 - 09:22 am
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Wow! I love being right three times, Pat. :) Let me guess... do you have a PC?
(Jim D., Mac Addict) |
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Jim,
I agree, here in Boston that would have killed many opportunities for school groups to see educational movies due to the mouse and contracts etc. |
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| Ron Bartsch posted on Friday, February 04, 2000 - 09:31 pm
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| Hi T.J. I really don't know what we're charging to tell you the truth. Prior to F2K's opening, we had a few teacher workshops whereby teachers could come see the movie for free, and take back info. to the school districts. The attendance at these workshops told us that teachers are interested in F2K, musically & artistically speaking. Moreover, we've discovered that some teachers are merely bringing their classes to see the film as a "funzie" thing for their students. I can't explain the success with school groups, but I can say that we've got a superb PR department. Our attendance has a great deal to do with all their hard work. Also, we get many school groups from outside the metro area who come to see the museum, and stay for F2K as an extra treat. I guess word-of-mouth among teachers has helped us a lot. The fact that we are a new theater probably draws 'em in too. As far as who pays for the ticket prices, I haven't a clue. I know we surveyed teachers too. Their responses were overwhelmingly positive. We haven't received any complaints about F2K's ticket prices in any category. Since the local multiplexes charge $7.50 for an adult ticket to a regular flick, $10.00 for F2K is quite reasonable. Our regular IMAX price is $7.50. Great to hear from you again bud. |
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